Agree. But eye contact can be difficult and even listening for some people. Am just learning about this and may not really be relevant here but it came to mind
I really appreciate that reminder. It takes me back to one of my grandsons when he was younger. In the end, we are all different even as we are all in some way the same.
It does indeed take courage to not know — and to confront the vastness of all we can never know or even approach with any certainty. But being heard is a pretty universal human need. As my wise husband says, "Most of us don't have to have our way, but we do want to have our say."
Love that! It's also not entirely about my point of view as against your point of view. Presence is a level of deep listening that allows space for both.
I love your Elul honesty! I had a dream recently, The Who's Who of the Ordinary, which feels like an invitation to me to embrace my ordinariness and lack of importance. It's all quite humbling, isn't it?
Funny, though, that it's the Who's Who of the Ordinary.....like the most extraordinary of the ordinary. For the most part, I find ordinary a very restful place to be. Enough already with needing to be important.
I love all of your columns and always identify with your reflections and references--a fellow American boomer. But this one is especially wonderful. You hit so many nerves...OW!
I know, it hurts. But I once had a clipping tacked up to a bulletin board that said "pain is the privilege of the living," so I try to get into it from that point of view.
I really like the spoken part—I’m speaking, I’m listening. My experience was with 3 CR groups. Two used talking sticks. The other was small enough to take turns.
So brave, this piece. Not easy to share that which we find after “a little windexing.”
I also suffer from wanting to “offload my own certitude,” to correct people’s thinking, more that to improve their character. Even at this late stage in “humanhood,” I am still someone who wants to be heard. The challenge is to exchange that desire for a desire to be a better listener, especially towards younger folks. I tell myself I’m in cronehood now. Thanks for another thought-provoking post and some new words/phrases.
Thank you for the idea that there might be a trade-off between being heard and becoming a better listener. I'm not sure I would use the word "exchange." I still want to be heard, but learning to listen is crucial. I like the talking stick model a lot.
Oh boy, do I. I participated in four or five women's groups. My experience with talking sticks was primarily in Jewish Renewal. We would take the stick from the center and say d'barti (I'm speaking). After speaking, we would put it back and everyone would say sh'mati (I'm listening). For some reason that really appealed to me.
Rachael.....I'm touched by your response and look forward to talking more about it. I must tell you, though, that the sentence about being utterly powerless comes from David Whyte. Can't take credit for that. Blessings.
Good question………I will just say thank you for the question. I am facilitating a group online for parents who have lost an only child in the military and we talk about this a lot. It goes with the territory. Thank you for all of your thoughts, Susie. I so enjoy reading your writing. Always makes me think. Blessings
I always allow space for others joy - most bereaved Moms do because we try to make other people comfortable. So we’re pretty good at presence. We all end up saying “it is what it is”
Amazing, as always......I’m in a bit of a different place in that I have noticed some people fidget when I talk about Chris and my grandson but then launch into gleeful conversation about their children and grandchildren. Pictures, pride and exaggerated joy........Whatever....🤷♀️
Well that certainly doesn't constitute presence. Your need to be heard must come first...I can imagine that it's difficult to have that need satisfied and to leave space to acknowledge other people's joy at some point. I'm going to message you with some further thoughts.
Many legal disputes are win-lose/zero sum games. Our legal system is designed as an "adversarial process". It results in the vindication of one version of truth which is not necessarily the honest truth reached through dialogue. Sometimes a situation is indeed all or nothing. But often it's not. Maybe we'll get to have a real chat about this some time, no trifling with canapes :)
I love your honesty! Of course it's impossible for me to really "know", from this short text, what it was really like to be on the receiving end of your "honest feedback". It sounds so very, very much like my mother - so much so, that if I recognized this kind of behavior in friends or recent aquaintances, I would run, not walk, in the opposite direction...
Can't say I blame you. I remember being convinced of the rectitude of my opinions about other people's lives. What a blessing to be free of that. It's enough to get a read on my own life.
I love how you've illuminated a disarming quote-- now I have to look up Whyte. I can't quite get away with using it as a signature line in my work, which trades in a one dimensional black and white view of truth. Not much room for honesty there. But I can import the vibe and try to help people be present in the process. Thank you, Susie, for yet another deeply worthwhile thought-provocation.
Excellent! A lot here to think about.
I wonder if there are people who don't respond possitively to presence...
People who are neurodiverse likely find it a challenge
There's presence and there's presence, don't you think? Listening, without touching for example, can be non-threatening.
Agree. But eye contact can be difficult and even listening for some people. Am just learning about this and may not really be relevant here but it came to mind
I really appreciate that reminder. It takes me back to one of my grandsons when he was younger. In the end, we are all different even as we are all in some way the same.
It does indeed take courage to not know — and to confront the vastness of all we can never know or even approach with any certainty. But being heard is a pretty universal human need. As my wise husband says, "Most of us don't have to have our way, but we do want to have our say."
Love that! It's also not entirely about my point of view as against your point of view. Presence is a level of deep listening that allows space for both.
Agreed. If only we could get that on a national level . . .
I love your Elul honesty! I had a dream recently, The Who's Who of the Ordinary, which feels like an invitation to me to embrace my ordinariness and lack of importance. It's all quite humbling, isn't it?
Funny, though, that it's the Who's Who of the Ordinary.....like the most extraordinary of the ordinary. For the most part, I find ordinary a very restful place to be. Enough already with needing to be important.
I love all of your columns and always identify with your reflections and references--a fellow American boomer. But this one is especially wonderful. You hit so many nerves...OW!
I know, it hurts. But I once had a clipping tacked up to a bulletin board that said "pain is the privilege of the living," so I try to get into it from that point of view.
O Susie, Yes!
Cynthia, blessings!
I really like the spoken part—I’m speaking, I’m listening. My experience was with 3 CR groups. Two used talking sticks. The other was small enough to take turns.
So brave, this piece. Not easy to share that which we find after “a little windexing.”
I also suffer from wanting to “offload my own certitude,” to correct people’s thinking, more that to improve their character. Even at this late stage in “humanhood,” I am still someone who wants to be heard. The challenge is to exchange that desire for a desire to be a better listener, especially towards younger folks. I tell myself I’m in cronehood now. Thanks for another thought-provoking post and some new words/phrases.
Thank you for the idea that there might be a trade-off between being heard and becoming a better listener. I'm not sure I would use the word "exchange." I still want to be heard, but learning to listen is crucial. I like the talking stick model a lot.
I liked talking sticks, too. Used them in the early consciousness-raising groups in the 70s. Remember those?
Oh boy, do I. I participated in four or five women's groups. My experience with talking sticks was primarily in Jewish Renewal. We would take the stick from the center and say d'barti (I'm speaking). After speaking, we would put it back and everyone would say sh'mati (I'm listening). For some reason that really appealed to me.
Really great essay. And I couldn't agree with you more about choosing very carefully how we spend our verbal time at this stage of life.
Thank you, Judith. Becoming more intimate with silence is part of the process as well. Do you find that in the garden?
Susie,
I loved your vulnerable honesty about yourself. It makes me feel close to you, and I hope that I am honest with you in the same way.
The surprise and depth of your sentence about being utterly powerless was the perfect climax to my mind.
Never stop writing!
R
Rachael.....I'm touched by your response and look forward to talking more about it. I must tell you, though, that the sentence about being utterly powerless comes from David Whyte. Can't take credit for that. Blessings.
Good question………I will just say thank you for the question. I am facilitating a group online for parents who have lost an only child in the military and we talk about this a lot. It goes with the territory. Thank you for all of your thoughts, Susie. I so enjoy reading your writing. Always makes me think. Blessings
I always allow space for others joy - most bereaved Moms do because we try to make other people comfortable. So we’re pretty good at presence. We all end up saying “it is what it is”
What does it take, after suffering a great loss, to occupy a place where you're trying to make other people comfortable?
Amazing, as always......I’m in a bit of a different place in that I have noticed some people fidget when I talk about Chris and my grandson but then launch into gleeful conversation about their children and grandchildren. Pictures, pride and exaggerated joy........Whatever....🤷♀️
Well that certainly doesn't constitute presence. Your need to be heard must come first...I can imagine that it's difficult to have that need satisfied and to leave space to acknowledge other people's joy at some point. I'm going to message you with some further thoughts.
You nail it.
And SO right for Elul! Thanks!
Shanah tovah. May it be a heart-expanding year for all of us.
Many legal disputes are win-lose/zero sum games. Our legal system is designed as an "adversarial process". It results in the vindication of one version of truth which is not necessarily the honest truth reached through dialogue. Sometimes a situation is indeed all or nothing. But often it's not. Maybe we'll get to have a real chat about this some time, no trifling with canapes :)
and that's not chopped liver...
I love your honesty! Of course it's impossible for me to really "know", from this short text, what it was really like to be on the receiving end of your "honest feedback". It sounds so very, very much like my mother - so much so, that if I recognized this kind of behavior in friends or recent aquaintances, I would run, not walk, in the opposite direction...
Can't say I blame you. I remember being convinced of the rectitude of my opinions about other people's lives. What a blessing to be free of that. It's enough to get a read on my own life.
Kudos to you for freeing yourself from that! Some people never do.
I love how you've illuminated a disarming quote-- now I have to look up Whyte. I can't quite get away with using it as a signature line in my work, which trades in a one dimensional black and white view of truth. Not much room for honesty there. But I can import the vibe and try to help people be present in the process. Thank you, Susie, for yet another deeply worthwhile thought-provocation.
I need to know what you mean by "my work, which trades in a one dimensional black and white view of truth." Say more when time allows.